Note that this is an unedited transcript of a live event and therefore may contain errors. This transcript is the joint property of CaptionsLIVE and the authorised party responsible for payment and may not be copied or used by any other party without authorisation. www.captionslive.com.au | [email protected] | 0447 904 255 UX Australia UX Australia 2022 Friday, 26 September 2022 Captioned by: Carmel Downes & Kasey Allen 

Note that this is an unedited transcript of a live event and therefore may contain errors. This transcript is the joint property of CaptionsLIVE and the authorised party responsible for payment and may not be copied or used by any other party without authorisation. Page 111 Because of the curse of knowledge and because we have different skills to bring, I would encourage you to think about how you can lean on people in your team to help you get better. How can you bring peer-review into the writing that you do? It could be as simple as you are writing a sensitive email to a client that is being special "Rich can you please read this email before I send it?" The final thing is I am an introvert and we have limited time, I won't be able to talk to you all one on one. If you like, go to this link, you can pop in your email and it will ask you what writing things you struggle with and then I will send you a drive or answer for your question. You will not go on my mailing list, I won't send you once in a life time real estate opportunities. It is just advice, done! Thank you so much for listening and good to be with you all. (APPLAUSE) STEVE BATY: Thank you. One more talk and a break and then one more talk and we're done. Time for a drink and relax and chat and all those sorts of things. Our last speaker for this session is Jon Duhig. He will talk about transformation and getting under the skin of people and he will practice that right here. Thank you, Jon. JON DUHIG: Hello, right, 2:50 on a Friday afternoon. Your brains are full and you are about to fall asleep. I will do my best but can't promise anything. So my name is Jon Duhig. My talk is entitled getting under their skin, culture change and transformation programs which sounds pretty grand and the colours are all gone for some reason. The projector's died. Do we know why that is? >> That's how it looks on my VMix machine. JON DUHIG: I was going to say my slides a normal yes black and white 

Note that this is an unedited transcript of a live event and therefore may contain errors. This transcript is the joint property of CaptionsLIVE and the authorised party responsible for payment and may not be copied or used by any other party without authorisation. Page 112 so very minimalist. Today I slapped a colour pallet all over my slides. It was fine when we tried it out before this session. Not only will you not have my gaudy colour pallet but also it is broken so let's see how we go. It looks good on this screen as well so it is the projector. It is looking lovely here if you want to see my colour pallet. So I'll be talking about colour change and transformation programs but really it is just some tips I have picked up from the work I've done being the first designer into an area or a team or department where there's no design going on. It's the projector because it's not - is it looking bad on your one as well? So some down to earth tips, nothing as formal as what Rich was talking about and it is kind of what happens before you get Rich in to set up some actual design capability. So I'll start with some muted out colour definitions. So by culture change I am talking about transforming the way people kind of think and feel and approach their work as we have real bias here. The mindset is to move people away from that kind of hierarchical dependent kind of way of working where you are depending on your expertise or the expertise of others so that means you can do your job well or you can be wrong and the other people you are working with can do their job well or they can be wrong. We want to move people to be more collaborative, more curious, more explorative so people are trying to solve problems and they're communicating and collaborating well. It is a real bias towards that sort of culture change. And the transformation programs are things where you've got - you are changing the fundamentals of the business with lots of projects over a number of years and you are trying to change the processes and technology to business works better. So if you are doing that you need people to be working differently as well so they go hand in hand. Let's see how these colours are. They are screwed up too. Are we going to stop it and start 

Note that this is an unedited transcript of a live event and therefore may contain errors. This transcript is the joint property of CaptionsLIVE and the authorised party responsible for payment and may not be copied or used by any other party without authorisation. Page 113 again because it will be painful all the way through otherwise. I used to use. It is normally looking okay in red and grey but you wouldn't see the red this time either. It is now gelato on my screen. When I said it looked okay, that is all right, we are good. I'm talking about a place where we are at level 2. So people know - thank you 20 to the person who thanked me for Rich's talk. I am dressed as a vicar as well. If you are confused between me and rich, Rich is the young, taller, thinner, funnier one. So I think in 2010 when this model was made there was Apple at level 2 where CP is part of the company. Everything they do, is blood of the company is about customer experience. I think we have come a long way since 2010 and it would be hard to find a CEO of a big company these days who doesn't understand and want to manage customer Experience so that is great, we have done well. But I've worked in the big banks, I've worked in Government and even in a big organisation that's kind of quite CP mature, the CEO sets it and there will be a red hot design centre and a digital group doing things really well or they will be the DTA in Government or services NSW who are doing things really well but there will be other parts of the organisation where they don't get it yet. They know they are supposed to be customer centric in everything they do but they don't know what that means yet. That's when I'm kind of brought in by somebody to say we have these 50, 60, 100, 200 people, they are doing all these projects can you bring in design capacity. The takeaway I get from the UX maturity model is you do different things at different levels. I will say that Rich was talking about level 3 to level 4 or level 4 to level 5 where you are trying to set some good structures up. I'm talking about level 2 to level 3 where you try to do different things. You try to get one or two projects going that turn people's heads and make people think, "This is a different way of doing things" and you try to build champions who try to advocate for more investment and design work. 

Note that this is an unedited transcript of a live event and therefore may contain errors. This transcript is the joint property of CaptionsLIVE and the authorised party responsible for payment and may not be copied or used by any other party without authorisation. Page 114 That is what I'm talking about. It means you spend a lot of time saying some basic things to people. You are saying, "We need to make it simpler" "we have to translate what you are saying to user's language. Yes, what you have written there is technically correct but doesn't make any sense except to an inside expert. We don't need to show the users that. We just need people to use the thing correctly. Nobody needs to use your technology" and all this basic stuff. You have to make it simpler so novice users can adopt it whether it is a staff or a customer system. That's what you are doing trying to be a designer helping people simplify their products. This is why I possibly offend or lose the entire audience. If you look at our product, which is design you might find that our product for new users is too complicated so we spend all day telling our customers of design that they need to simplify their product so people can start using it and then our product, look at this Google search for design process. I love this, I'm like a kid in a candy store, right. For a novice user it is inconsistent and looks complicated and don't know where to start. So strangely we can say the same things about our product that we tell our customers, that we need to make it simple so they can understand it and start using it. So, how do we do that? Well luckily Simon has given us a good shunt in the right direction. If you haven't seen his ted talk he has a good surname, you can see the colours are screwed here. He talks about how lots of people talk about what they do and some people will talk about how they do it but they are really a company, so they are a really good leadership, they will talk about why they do it. That inspires action more than talking about what you do. What we do is our design process and when we are at a conference for two days talking with ourselves we should talk about all the technical stuff. We've just got a heap better at design. We comply cat our product because we know why there these complications are important and how 

Note that this is an unedited transcript of a live event and therefore may contain errors. This transcript is the joint property of CaptionsLIVE and the authorised party responsible for payment and may not be copied or used by any other party without authorisation. Page 115 they make our design better and we get better outcomes but when we are talking to novice users we've got to simplify it. He talks about you should start with the why, he has a great talk and a great book. Here is why I think the golden circle, as he calls it, of design can look like. I think at the heart of design is this idea that the thing has to work for the people that are going to use it. You can make your own flavour of that, right? You could say it needs to be more competitive or better than the competition. The reason it is like that is because the project manager or the developer or the business owner that you're trying to talk to will agree with that. They will say, yeah, the thing's got to work for the people that are going to use it, if that is staff or customers. But as designer, what makes us special is we're prepared to go to a heap more effort to make sure the thing does work for the people that are going to use it. We have a different definition of what working for the people means and we have now got a wider definition of what "people" means but we agree on the surface with the people we are talking to. You can use the dark pattern. You can say - the thing we have at the moment is a bit crap, people aren't using it, it is not working." You can wrap that with once you have that argument that the thing needs to work for the people that are going to use it we can say, "We need to be sure it is going to work." They will agree with. That that is an easy win. That will get you some user testing and maybe some user research. I worked with a project manager once in cannon and he wouldn't do any usability work at would. I tricked him and got him to put in his project plan at the start of the project that the thing he was making would be quicker to use than the competitor product. He was quite confident because that's what his technology did. I didn't hear from him for two months and then he came to me in a panic because the project management office wouldn't sign his project off until he could prove that the thing was indeed faster to use than the competitor product 

Note that this is an unedited transcript of a live event and therefore may contain errors. This transcript is the joint property of CaptionsLIVE and the authorised party responsible for payment and may not be copied or used by any other party without authorisation. Page 116 so he had to do some user testing, I had to do it for him. That is the next ring of the circle. This is how we can do it, I know how to do it, that is where you bring in your designer expertise and the things you can do. Finally you can wrap that with, "I can't do it without you." Which isn't just being manipulative, it is the multidisciplinary team why we need that thing. I found talking about design not as a design process but as able a good outcome is a good way to start to get people to take the first steps into the design process. So that's my first ruined colours - please come and look at the slide on this scene after the talk's finish. This is my first point, don't sell a design process; sell a good design. My second point is also a don't but after that it is positive, I promise. So this is castle design. We do make design castles which is a great talk, I'm not rich, around design castles. We build design castles for good reasons because they protect design. When you have a large team of designers you are doing designer scale in a large organisation, you make sure design is done well and that design quality is protected. But for a new user who's working in waterfall and wants to maybe start talking to the users of their products, the design castle can appear like an impenetrable fortress, which is a great talk so I can skip through this quite quickly. The point is that I've built design castles. When I get to a big organisation and I'm working in a little area I will be wanting to use the things in the design castle, like I'll need a consent form for user testing that has been approved by the legal department because that is useful for me, but I can navigate that because I'm a designer. For somebody who wants to start doing design what is, as Rich said, what is that next first step they can do to start doing a little bit of user Centred design. That is the mind flip - jeez, that is a pink thing in the middle - oh well, just a different colour pallet ripped off the internet. This is the mind flip you have to do from running design teams where you have to make 

Note that this is an unedited transcript of a live event and therefore may contain errors. This transcript is the joint property of CaptionsLIVE and the authorised party responsible for payment and may not be copied or used by any other party without authorisation. Page 117 designers better and get them from 85% to 97%. If you are the only designer and there are 50-100 people running projects you need to make them start doing a little bit of user Centred design. It can be scary. The quality isn't going to be great. It is the only way you can start to move a lot of these projects. So that is my second point is don't build a design castle yet. Build it later and make sure you have watched Rich's presentation again before you do it. So what do you do then? If you are talking about design and you are not creating design frameworks and design approaches and design best practice that will stop people doing any design at all what do you do. Well my tactic is to just help anyone that will ask, right. So when you first get somewhere you will get a little bit of air time and there is a new design person, we will start doing some designee stuff and you can say hello and do a presentation and you will start to get people coming to say things to you like, "I've got this poster, can you fix it for me" or, "I have this dialogue box, what do I put on the buttons" or, "I have this internet page, how do I structure it?" You can help them. I help them. I must say I'm explicitly told by the people that get me in not to do this, don't try and fix everything, focus on your core projects. My team that I work with explicitly tell me to stop having conversations with people and bringing in work that we don't need to be doing. I noticed there was a presentation at a previous conference about the power of saying no. So previous conferences, my team and my employers all say don't do this but I still say do this because this is the grand metaphor, this is the network of fungal mycelian threads connecting to trees in a Japanese forest. Let's see if I can make this work. You can see who's who in the zoo and you know what the big projects are but you don't know the underground networks and the fungal networks transmit nutrients around the forest. So you don't know if the person whose poster you just helped fix up, maybe that are the cycling 

Note that this is an unedited transcript of a live event and therefore may contain errors. This transcript is the joint property of CaptionsLIVE and the authorised party responsible for payment and may not be copied or used by any other party without authorisation. Page 118 buddy of somebody important. You don't know if the porn in a dialogue box will defend you in a team meeting one day or someone - their team will see what happened and think, "This is better. " So you can make advocates. Over time three coloured lines with good colour contrast - just so you know. They are trying to make champions but you don't know who those champions are. You hear a lot from the detractors at the start more than you can see on this graph. That will quieten down over time because they get bored or you can persuade them. You can use the enthusiasts to create more advocacy for design. They will in turn become champions or persuade champions faster. There is another reason, it is about data points. The more people you speak to at the start, it is like a discovery phase, the learning phase, you learn more about the business, you learn about posters and internet pages. You can give them a little bit of help but actually you are learning a lot. Then you can start giving better and better design advice to the work you are doing which means you are informing those in night projects a bit more and then at some point you can do that key intervention, that style in this diagram that brings those in-flight projects you can barely see into your very strong design practice that you realise but you don't know what that thing is at the start. It is not CX metrix, it's not, you know, a design castle, it might be something like some staff personas or a service blueprint on the line or a line in the MPO quality metrix that says you must talk to the CP people. What is the thing that will persuade that culture to start moving more towards a design culture? By talking to as many people as possible over every cup of tea, every coffee, every conversation in the lift I say take every opportunity with every individual. Beautiful colours! So, now you have people thinking about design as an outcome. You've got lots of people that have - some people you have spoken to, what you are doing when you are speaking to these 

Note that this is an unedited transcript of a live event and therefore may contain errors. This transcript is the joint property of CaptionsLIVE and the authorised party responsible for payment and may not be copied or used by any other party without authorisation. Page 119 people you are working with? So the photos are pretty good. So I didn't know if I would be losing people at this point so here is a photo of a cute furry mammal. So there's two soft skills you are trying to build or two capabilities in the bins. The first one is curiosity. When you are speaking to these people rather than fixing the poster or the dialogue box or internet page look fortunes to make people curious. That is the first part of design thinking. If you can stay to the person where a poster let's say to some people what posters do you like? If you can say to the people with the box I don't know what words to put on the button, let's talk to the staff and see what words they use. Let's talk to people about which internet pages they like so you can start to not do the thing for them, which is the expert-dependent way of working and you can start to say let's go and find out. That is how you talk to people. The second capability you need to build you have to do all the work yourself. You know how the do this, this is about recruiting users but they don't. So whether it's talking to staff, getting a side business going on, recruiting real customers and doing custom research you have to do all of that work. Because that's your skill as a designer. So that's point number four. We're halfway. We are doing good for time. You have talked to as many people as you can, you have made them curious and reduced any Barriers to them actually speaking to their user. They will go out and interact with the staff or customers who are actually using the products. Radical! Obviously that is quite scary because they are not researchers and I know for a room of people like this that sound like a very dangerous thing to do, and it is. You have to the a little bit of training. So the way I think about it is when you first get there you do some presentations that are all-staff or the team meet eggs whatever you can do to talk about design thinking. Then you have ready 

Note that this is an unedited transcript of a live event and therefore may contain errors. This transcript is the joint property of CaptionsLIVE and the authorised party responsible for payment and may not be copied or used by any other party without authorisation. Page 120 some research 101 training that you can use to when you've got somebody who needs to go and speak to the user, you can train them up quickly in how to not be awful at design. And then the rest of the design thinking - design training, I will not talk about it, they will sort that out themselves if you are done your job well. Just quickly, I found these two die grams off the internetwork quite well persuading novice people to get into design thinking. I do a design thinking course there. I found these two work. So on the left here we've got traditional thinking described as, you know, doing by thinking, by planning, by not failing and on the right it's got design thinking as approaching tasks by trial and error and failing and you learn by doing. I find that one works quite well for novice people and the resolution is awful because of the colours but there is a sharp version on the slides that will be on the internet later. I use a double diamond. Some people think a double diamond is jargon or a bit crap but I think it works because if they Google double diamond they get a very consistent set of results off the internet. So they just get all the same stuff. I like it's got problem and solution that you can see, that is the design council version of it so you know it is WCAG compliant. I like that it has conversion and diversion, I like that diagram. Here is how I approach research 101. I know for some people it would be like 1984 room 101, it is your worst nightmare sending out novice researchers and they will do bad research if you just send them out. They will drop things in front of people that say, "I made this, is it any good?" They will say, "Here is two thing, Sydney better." You need to break that down. The first thing is people are strange so you can't trust what people change, give them some cognitive biases, tell them about the Hawthorne effect and remove their trust in getting an answer. And then you give them some practice in asking open questions. If you do that they can go out and be curious and speak to some of the users and they will have only 

Note that this is an unedited transcript of a live event and therefore may contain errors. This transcript is the joint property of CaptionsLIVE and the authorised party responsible for payment and may not be copied or used by any other party without authorisation. Page 121 aha moments. Importantly you close the training with - make sure you plan your research carefully, you know what you are trying to find out and how you are going to do it and talk to us and make sure you've got it okay. That means you have control and insight of what they are going to do and you can decide if you are going to go out with them or not. Then you can tell them not to do a survey because that's what they want to do. There's also a whole conference on design research. You might get a better answer there, do it your own way, that is the structure I use. Have it in your back pocket when you are going to send these people out to talk to the actual users of their products. Don't worry about the other design training. So they are going to go out and for the first time they are going to speak to the people using the software on the customers using the things they are making and they will fund out that the world is not how they thought it was because it is the first time they have interacted with the users. They will come back enthusiastic and confused. The poster person will find out no one cares about the poster, the designer of the dialogue will find out that everyone just clicks on the X to the dialect box goes away. The person with the internet box will find out that the internet search is broken and so is the navigate and no one will find your page in the first place so it is all a waste of time. Hopefully you have started to hire fires around the place where people find out we have been doing it wrong this whole time. How do you deal with that? You have your core projects you are supposed to be working on and then you create all these problems. So I've found that design jams is a good way of managing that. So I first saw this at Westpac CP group, they had a love e-afternoon once a for night where the design group would getting to and one would bring one of the problems they are working on and they would all work on it together and figure out what is a good approach. You can use this in 

Note that this is an unedited transcript of a live event and therefore may contain errors. This transcript is the joint property of CaptionsLIVE and the authorised party responsible for payment and may not be copied or used by any other party without authorisation. Page 122 different ways. You can have it as your team meeting, you can say after our team meeting we will take an hour and anyone can bring any problems they have got and we will try to figure out how we can work on it. In your project you can design it is time to get everyone together and have a Miro board and start to work on an issue. If there is a team you are not working with you can say we can't work on your project but it is great you are doing some user Centred work so we'll give you an hour a fortnight and we will come along and you can bring whatever you are doing and we will work through it with you. This is where you can start to bring in some of your design brilliance and expertise. You can take the crunchy problems they bring you and spread your design goodness over them, totally meant to toast the opportunities, whatever. I think that is a good way of efficiently seeing what is going on and deciding when to intervene. You might decide it is good to teach them a new methodology or introduce a new idea or perspective. I find that works quite well. So that's my sixth point. So you've talked about design in a way that people can understand, you've not built barriers to people starting to do user centred design, you have talked to anyone that will listen to you and persuaded them to get involved in something, you have made them curious and removed barriers to getting some user research going and you've got them - done some research training so they are not awful at research and you have dealt with some of the problems they have fund when they've had those Eureka moments. By this time hopefully the main projects you have been working been will start shifting. Hopefully something will be head turning or your champion project. Hopefully it is enterprise software people can use or a customer service that will deliver on its objectives. So there's one thing you've got to do before you roll out your beautiful product and that's to make sure that the organisational comms doesn't mangle it when 

Note that this is an unedited transcript of a live event and therefore may contain errors. This transcript is the joint property of CaptionsLIVE and the authorised party responsible for payment and may not be copied or used by any other party without authorisation. Page 123 it gets delivered. This relates to what Matt was saying that sometimes the organisational change team will be quite mature and they will be good at talking to the users and the staff in a good way with a good tone of voice. Sometimes the comms is not mature either. The project team will be used to explaining themselves at great length to explain about the project, as Matt said, "No one cares about your project" so they want to say that the project is for, who has funded it, what is sponsor is, what is strategy is, they will have six pains of screen shots for every step in the process. They will have a trouble shooting guide, a photo of the team to make it friendly, they will have everything but it's all about the project team wanting to explain themselves. But the person who is receiving that bit of change in a team meeting or an email in the morning, they don't care. They don't know what they have to do. You have probably not the only bit of change they will get that week or that day and want to get on with their job without having to read a big, long document. So you have to make sure the comms is structured to be a bit more employee focussed. It is a more complicated than, "What do I have to do" because some staff do care. If you think about there are some staff who have very low care. So on the FG index zero Fs are given. They really just want to know what's changing and they want a picture and a couple of bullet points or one bullet point. If you have made something good it shouldn't need too much explanation so if that person can see there's a new thing it looks pretty good they know how to start using it and when they start using it it will work for them because you have made it like that. That's all they need to know and they will also see that the change in the communication, the way they are being spoken to is different. So for those people who are low on the FG index, they can feel the world's changing a little bit now. You are starting to make work feel different to people. But some staff will actually give an F or even lots of Fs because 

Note that this is an unedited transcript of a live event and therefore may contain errors. This transcript is the joint property of CaptionsLIVE and the authorised party responsible for payment and may not be copied or used by any other party without authorisation. Page 124 they are either cynical or professional and they want a bit more information so they want all that stuff that is typically given to them. So for those people you want to make stuff - you want to give them all that information. But like Matt said was it bytes, snacks and the banquet. You want to have that simple communication which is very clear for the zero FG people and they can click on a link or use on internet search term and find all that stuff if they choose to open that door and go and look for it. So... I wish the colours worked. At this point hopefully things are starting to look different. You have built some good stuff and the comms has been good and people are starting to do things in a different way, they can speak to staff or customers with your help. So things might start to feel a bit different. But there's one thing you have to do all the way through and this is my trigger warning moment. If you are squeamish about animals attacking other animals you should like away now. There might be dangerous ideas rushing around in the organisation that will prevent you making progress. So when you sense what that dangerous idea is you need to wait your moment and then when you're ready you have to go for the jugular, you have to go in hard and kill that idea. So let me give you some examples. So I've worked for the banks and I've worked for different Government departments and you normally get some flavour of the argument that it's all very good making things nice and easy for the customers but we have to balance that with our security obligations. That's got to die, right. So number one, customer experience is not about making things nice and easy for your customer, it is about making your business work. It might mean it is nice and easy for the customer but we are making things work here. I wouldn't tell them that as a response. Then secondly, wow, I'm doing services homework, I will look at everything the customers are doing and everything the staff are doing. Once I know that is the bad 

Note that this is an unedited transcript of a live event and therefore may contain errors. This transcript is the joint property of CaptionsLIVE and the authorised party responsible for payment and may not be copied or used by any other party without authorisation. Page 125 idea I will look for all the things that aren't secure, we will look for all the processes that are either mission or they are security risks or especially the things they think are secure but aren't really secure. When I've got the system you have to go in hard and like no one is going to be ranting about security more than the CX guy. I will be really upset about all the security flaws. Every propose ideal or design is going to be about here's how we need to improve security and we must make these changes. I will own the security space because it is too dangerous an idea that people think you have to balance the CX and the security. It is like what Tesla did, there was an idea that electric cars are boring. Toyota made the most boring car there is, a Prius. Tesla made a two-seater supports car and an Aston Martin killer that is way faster than Aston Martin. Its that a ludicrous button on the dashboard. Two cars later they make a city runaround. I thought it was really good. It was the Tesla approach. Other examples I have seen we were running an audio channel and I noticed that even though we were getting better at how that channel should work, the discussions about what those audio messages were were done between all the stakeholders so the policy people, the business owners, the channel owners and the vendors who built the thing, they discussed the message by email and Word documents. I said, "No, you can't agree in audio message if people are reading it, what reads well doesn't sound well." I had to change that process that they discussed the audio message in an audio conference, in a phone conference. They had to read out the message to each other. That meant the policy people who wanted all the correct things to be here, they had to read out a 45 second message to their colleagues and they found it mortifying so it really changed the way they thought about audio messages because they had to hear them to judge an audio message of course. So that had to change. Working for the bank we wanted to help business customers move from 

Note that this is an unedited transcript of a live event and therefore may contain errors. This transcript is the joint property of CaptionsLIVE and the authorised party responsible for payment and may not be copied or used by any other party without authorisation. Page 126 over the counter services to automated services. And to be fair the automated services were better for the business customers and we made a new automated service that was even better for them. So it was a good move, but in my services homework looking at the way it all - the system happened I found out that the relationship managers who sold new business or bought new customers in they could discount the over the counter fees and the bank thought that business customers cared about how they do their banking, business customers care about stocks and staff and profits and seasons and they do what the bank tells them. So if the relationship manager is saying here's a discount on this service it is kind of telling them to use it, right. So we had to kill the ability of the relationship managers to offer a discount went we had to train them in how good the automated services were. So who knows what those dangerous ideas might be where you are starting to get design going but you have to find them and you have to be vicious. Don't mess about, you have to kill and you have to win. So we talk about being a design ninja, that is where you get to get your weapons out. So these are my - these are my tips from the work that I've done in Government and in the commercial area. They don't always work and you have to customise them for where you are. Don't talk about design process, nobody wants your design process. Don't build a design castle yet and talk to Rich when you do. Talk to everyone, take every opportunity with every individual. Make them curious, help them get in front of their users, talk about design thinking it first and then have research 101 ready. That is wrapping. Use design jams because they are an efficient way of getting coverage and then make sure that the organisation is talking to the staff in a - an acceptable way that is user centred and then go for the jugular on those dangerous ideas. That's my lived experience, but yours may vary. You should adapt it for the place 

Note that this is an unedited transcript of a live event and therefore may contain errors. This transcript is the joint property of CaptionsLIVE and the authorised party responsible for payment and may not be copied or used by any other party without authorisation. Page 127 you are and adapt it for the designer that you are. My name is Jon Duhig and I have 10 minutes live, which is pretty good. (APPLAUSE) STEVE BATY: Thanks, on. Rich sent through a question. JON DUHIG: I sent myself a question do you mean. STEVE BATY: Is Rich in the room? >> Yes, I am. JON DUHIG: Can we get a micro phone up to Rich or come down. JON DUHIG: Come and see my colours, come on. RICH BROPHY: Love your talk, some really great reference to the other speakers. I have a question that I'm struggling with which is when you are trying to implement design by doing design in an organisation, when you've got people who are doing it for the first time but you are on the hook for the deliverables or the outcomes, how do you manage that? Like it is an opportunity to build trust, right, and confidence but also the work's not very good so how do you do...? JON DUHIG: That's the key, to make sure they talk to you when planning your research and hold design jams so you know when to centre screen. It doesn't always work. Sometimes you miss things that are badly designed but hopefully you have enough coverage and the stakeholders will let you know when there are things happening that you should know about. You have a problem when people start doing skunk works and 

Note that this is an unedited transcript of a live event and therefore may contain errors. This transcript is the joint property of CaptionsLIVE and the authorised party responsible for payment and may not be copied or used by any other party without authorisation. Page 128 start going off and doing work possibly with research and design and you don't know about it. You have to be really careful about that. That is why you need buy-in from the top. The people that brought you in are at level 4, 5 and 6, they understand design and know what you are trying to the and understand the design process, you can talk to them about it and they will hopefully give you coverage but it is a problem. The key work that you are doing should be solid. You should be doing really good design work as an example and then hopefully you can take these people from 0% to 10% and hopefully it's - I always compare it to what would have happened if they didn't do anything and if it is better than what it would have been it's okay. And then next time they do something it can be even better. So you talked about how - what is the next step they need to do and once they learn from that they can do the next thing. So I really am talking about those first Eureka moments when they realise that they are that technical expert with the curse of knowledge and they are not able to see how other people do things. If you can get them into the process and have a little bit of empathy then it is a win, right? And also the car crashes are good. You learn from the car crashes and you can do better next time. STEVE BATY: I have a question, the sort of work you are talking about requires ongoing funding, which isn't necessarily available to you. Like resources that come back either in a recurring way or that you have to go and ask for, what does that business case look like, formal or informal, that gets you your next round of funding to do, as you described it, when people are ready here is the next thing that you start teaching them or getting them to do, how do you build that funding process over time? JON DUHIG: I am going to be honest with you, I am the ice breaker, so I 

Note that this is an unedited transcript of a live event and therefore may contain errors. This transcript is the joint property of CaptionsLIVE and the authorised party responsible for payment and may not be copied or used by any other party without authorisation. Page 129 come in ex-get design going, I'm persuasive to people who don't want to do any design as well. The team will eventually grow. We need another designer and you get to four or five people to get a bit of a team. Once you get to that formal business case for level 3, level 4, level 5 I hope there is a colleague in my team who can do that stuff for me, right? So I'm going to be honest, I do that kind of hands on ice breaking kind of design work and then somebody will realise they need to get rid of me and get Rich in. And I move on. STEVE BATY: Please join me in thanking, Jon. Thank you. JON DUHIG: Beautiful colours, aren't they lovely. STEVE BATY: If it makes you feel better up there in the corner it was beautiful. It looks really good here too. JON DUHIG: You are in the wrong, seats, guys. STEVE BATY: If you want to come and have a look, the colours look really good. JON DUHIG: I put the hex codes up. STEVE BATY: Something that has been going on during the course of the day that will be probably as important to you as it has been to me the ABC has been running a poll for a while now to select Australia's best native tree and I'm really happy to announce that the river red gum got up and won. I know, I know, it is fabulous. For those Victorians and Tasmania the mountain ash was fifth but the river red gum was first and I