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UXA2022 Day 1; Ted Drake - Inclusive design for cognitive disabilities, neurodiversity, and chronic illness

UXA2022 Day 1; Ted Drake - Inclusive design for cognitive disabilities, neurodiversity, and chronic illness

Learn how to design for people with short term memory loss, problems focusing on a task, struggling with anxiety, and dealing with chronic pain. This presentation will introduce you to the people you need to include in your designs. You will also have clear action items for inclusive design.

uxaustralia
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August 25, 2022
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  1. Note that this is an unedited transcript of a live

    event and therefore may contain errors. This transcript is the joint property of CaptionsLIVE and the authorised party responsible for payment and may not be copied or used by any other party without authorisation. www.captionslive.com.au | captionslive@outlook.com | 0447 904 255 UX Australia UX Australia 2022 – Hybrid Conference Thursday, 25 August 2022 Captioned by: Kasey Allen & Carmel Downes
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    event and therefore may contain errors. This transcript is the joint property of CaptionsLIVE and the authorised party responsible for payment and may not be copied or used by any other party without authorisation. Page 87 assessment? I can't get them to apply for their assessment, then we are back in the crisis situation. There were three questions that they needed to answer but to answer those questions we needed to look at that granular tactical understanding, how we normalise that situation for them and gave them the confidence that what they are experiencing was normal and importantly, we needed to make sure that they still had a sense of control. If they felt this was going to threaten their independence, that was it. That sense of control and the sense that once they embark odd this journey and applied for an assessment, they still had a sense of control. It was their decision as to what happened next. There was a lot of careful work went into refining and working through all of the different aspects of this. My final comment for today, your grandmother or grandfather is not familiar with swiping right. When you are designing in sensitive areas, you need to unlearn everything that you think is familiar in terms of UI pattern design and come at it from the perspective of the person you are designing for. Thank you. (APPLAUSE) STEVE BATY: Thank you so much. That was wonderful our next speaker is Ted who is joining us from the west coast of the USA. It is late in the evening for him and that is OK. It is about 9pm on the west coast. I was going to say he is in San Francisco but I am not convinced that is true. He is on the west coast of the country which is good. Please join me in welcoming Ted. Hello. TED DRAKE: Hello everybody. Let me go ahead and share my screen real quick. There we go. I think you should probably have me good with sound and everything, is that correct?
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    event and therefore may contain errors. This transcript is the joint property of CaptionsLIVE and the authorised party responsible for payment and may not be copied or used by any other party without authorisation. Page 88 STEVE BATY: All very good. TED DRAKE: There's almost 266 people online. That's pretty amazing. I don't know how many people are in the room but hello, my name is Ted Drake, I'm the accessibility and inclusive design leader for Intuit. We make software for people who pay their tacks to their financial health and run small businesses. I believe they are going to be sharing my slides but I did upload them to slideshare.net and you can get them at bld.ly. If you like to you can download the slides and look at them on your own. I'm excited to be a part of this inclusivity sandwich. I get that makes me the Vegemite of the bunch with Fiona's talk just before and then following up with Natasha. To start off, I would like to continue the amazing tradition in Australia, New Zealand and Canada by doing a land acknowledgement. I want to respectfully acknowledge the Cahuilla Nation who has stewarded this land in palm Strings throughout the generations. We ask you to join us in acknowledging the Cahuilla Nation, their community, ancestors and elders both past and present as well as their future generations. We acknowledge their present on this land as a result of the occupation of Indigenous land. This acknowledgement is part of our commitment to work towards honouring the legacies of the Cahuilla Nation and Indigenous peoples around the world. I started doing land acknowledgements after visiting Australia about four years ago and I was really impressed by the way that every day events were started with it. So I thank you for setting the standard and being able to continue with it. So what are we going to talk about today? We're going to explore some neurodiversity leaders, we will talk about UX principles, cognitive load, short-term memory, content design, readability and I will go over some lessons we learned while we were doing so research with sickle cell disease and anxiety.
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    event and therefore may contain errors. This transcript is the joint property of CaptionsLIVE and the authorised party responsible for payment and may not be copied or used by any other party without authorisation. Page 89 Let me tell you a little bit about yourself. I'm Intuit's inclusivity and design leader. I have been there for four years and before that I was at Yahoo for 7 years. I have been in accessibility for 20 years. I graduated with agree in fine art and started working for the museum of art in Chicago. As a website manager we had this theme called section 508 in America that basically says if you are going to provide a service like a museum you had to make it available to everybody. It had to be accessible so at the time around 2000, we were still trying to figure out how to build websites and make them look good let alone make them accessible so it was a big learning experience over the years. I was fortunate enough to join yahoo early on when we started doing this thing called standards-based web development which was essentially saying let's just build stuff correctly and let's force the browsers to start recognising standards and once the browsers and the developers start recognising standards, everything came together and now we just take it for granted that people use things like listed items and headings and paragraphs. That is a little bit about me once again we will be sharing the slides so it will be easy for you to find my Flickr or websites and stuff. The most important thing about this talk is that I do not have lived experiences. I'm going to be talking about inclusive design for neurodiversity, mental health, cognitive disabilities, chronic pain, anxiety but I'm not going to be able to talk with the experience of somebody who has these conditions. So I would like to introduce you to a few people that you can follow and learn more. Now we just watched Fiona talk about designing for sensitive spaces. This year - it was around March or April - the Ace Con conference had an amazing presentation by Tori Clark and Keli Sierra Bradley and it was my trigger, my choice. It was about if you are growing to be providing website and services and events you need to be let people know what trigger warnings, not just trigger
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    event and therefore may contain errors. This transcript is the joint property of CaptionsLIVE and the authorised party responsible for payment and may not be copied or used by any other party without authorisation. Page 90 warnings for content like I'm going to tell you about a presentation that includes suicide or sexual assault but also trigger warnings like this presentation may have a heavy use of animation. There could be flashing. Any kind of trigger warning that could cause someone to have a migraine or to have an epileptic seizure or be difficult for them to see or hear. As an example, there's a video later in this presentation that I may show, if I have time, that lacks content descriptions so if there is anybody in the audience that is not able to see the screen, you won't get the full experience. Ashlea McKay did a presentation at UX in 2017. She has autism and is a researcher and designer in Australia. I love the work of Laurel Beyers with VMware, she has dyslexia and does not amazing presentations about designing for people with dyslexia. Lona Moore is ExxonMobil's principal design program manager and she is also on the autism spectrum and his disabilities. Gareth Ford Williams led an inclusive design at the BBC broadcasting channel and I've gotten a few examples of some of the work he has done during this presentation. I think he is truly a leader and amazing person to follow. He has ADHD and dyslexia, he is very open about it and he also helped me with my research on long COVID. Rene Brooks is a podcaster. She is also - has ADHD and has podcast about ADHD. She is also part of the kaleidoscope society. Her website is Black Girl, Lost Keys. Finally Jamie Knight and Lion. Jamie worked with the BBC. He has a very good podcast called 1,800 seconds on autism which is for professional, successful adults with autism and they talk about their daily life. But the one key thing is that there is no single experience or solution. I can't tell you if you want to serve your audience, your audience has autism or ADHD or obsessive compulsive disorder, chronic pain or fatigue, I can't say here's the solution because everybody is different, everybody needs their own solutions. What I can
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    event and therefore may contain errors. This transcript is the joint property of CaptionsLIVE and the authorised party responsible for payment and may not be copied or used by any other party without authorisation. Page 91 do though is try to give you some UX principles and some ways to improve your products and designs so you can improve ways for people to be independent and do the work they do. Let's Luke at UX principles for cognitive disability. This was - this an adaptation of an article by Gareth Ford Williams. He looked at the heuristic, Norman, and said, "It is good, but I don't understand it as coming from someone who has ADHD." It is hard for him to understand. He rewrote them and put them in a different context. This comes from his article UX Principles that Include Cognitive Disability. They are using standard elements, check your affordance and signifiers. Simplify interfaces, communicate clearly, build in redundant interaction methods, use consistent patters, design for recognition rather than recall. Vary still Julie to capture attention, deliver effective feedback and notification and give users control and choice. Most of these will be covered in the following slides, this is why I want to put these up front. This is what we will be talking about for the rest of the slides. Let's take a look at affordances and signifiers. As a design conference I'm assuming everyone here knows what an affordance and signifier is. To show there is two photographs of this slide, one is the inside view of a door and one is the outside view of the door. On the outside the handles have a polished surface because so many people grab them and pull on the door to open it. On the inside of the door they have these flat panels so when you go to the door you push on the flat panels and they collapse and the door opens to the outside. They push. The signifier is that the handle looks like it can be grabbed and pulled. The signifier is that it looks like a panel that you can push and the affordance is that this door either opens in ah out by either pushing or pulling. That's what we want. We want people to go to a door, grab it, open it. We don't want something that's called a Norman door. A Norman door is from Nielsen Norman, a Norman door is when you go up to a door, you grab it, you pull it and it doesn't
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    event and therefore may contain errors. This transcript is the joint property of CaptionsLIVE and the authorised party responsible for payment and may not be copied or used by any other party without authorisation. Page 92 move. So you pull it again and again and again and then you give up and you walk away and just assume the building is closed or maybe if you are really determined then you might actually start pushing or pulling, twisting, whatever you can. So what happens is that when the affordance and the signifier match we have a happy camper, people are able to do the task they want. When the affordance and the signifier don't match that's when we start causing cognitive load, that's when we start frustrating you. That's when the person starts thinking it is broken, that they are making a mistake. So that's why affordance and signifiers are really key or the cognitive disabilities because we want to reduce the cognitive load. So what is cognitive load? This was a great article by Tolu Adabiti, she wrote and article on designing for cognitive disabilities. Cognitive load is the amount of working memory or short-term memory someone is using. When you minimise the cognitive load it takes to use your bright or service it makes it more accessible for people with cognitive disabilities. We don't want people to spend their energy and their cognitive energy, we don't want them to get frustrated, we want them to be happy and successful and we are not going to do that if we make people have to go through barriers and try to figure out what's happening. We don't want them to try to figure out, we just want them to do. We can do that by making sure we create products that are understandable intuitively. So this was an article by Microsoft and it's called respecting focus and they are not talking about keyboard focus like pressing the tab key, they are talking about how do you focus on a task. For instance I am creating an invoice or writing an email. I'm researching dog food, anything like. That they say when technology communicates and behaves well, it enables you to do what you want to, on your terms. It communicates in ways that allow you to focus, and achieve the level of concentration you need to accomplish a
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    event and therefore may contain errors. This transcript is the joint property of CaptionsLIVE and the authorised party responsible for payment and may not be copied or used by any other party without authorisation. Page 93 task." This is from a Microsoft PDP respecting focus: A behaviour guide for intelligent systems. You can find this if you go to the excellent inclusive design website that Microsoft has. So let's look at how we can reduce cognitive load, use simple instead of complex. The man who came up with the concept of mobile first talked about this when we had these big huge websites and we were trying to squeeze them into a phone. I mentioned I worked at yahoo so at yahoo they were doing exactly that, you had Yahoo finance or yahoo news and we were basically trying to shove every article on everything we could into the mobile phone interface and we were like no, no, no. What is really important? Let's say it is a banking app, if I have no mobile phone app the most porn thing I want to know is how much money is in my bank. I want to log in, I want to see if I have any bills to do. I don't need to know all of the other stuff. So let's take up a of the other stuff and put it away. Let's hide it in different menus and stuff. That is the concept of simple instead of complex. What content actually serves a purpose and leave out all the rest. We also want to have easy to understand content. Add into it, like many other companies, our readability target is 5th to 8 President grade. Some things are complex and rely on someone be a CPA or professional accountant or lawyer and some of those terms will be complex but the overall reading should be 5th-8 President grade with the occasional big word but those big words are relevant for the context. We have a colleague that has been leading a lot of our neurodiversity employee network and he has been looking at how we can make our onboarding more accessible and one of the things he has been looking at is how can you provide multi-modal. You have a text, illustration and video, and if you can use video and illustrations to support your content it will make it easier to understand. Have clear affordance and signifiers, use headings and lists to make content
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    event and therefore may contain errors. This transcript is the joint property of CaptionsLIVE and the authorised party responsible for payment and may not be copied or used by any other party without authorisation. Page 94 scannable because we don't want a big line of words. Use consistent layout and finally label icons with visible text. On the screen I have six icons, two of them have text associated with them. It is a person icon, it is my experts, question mark that says "help" I have a magnifying class, a bell, a gear and a blue circle with the white letter C. My experts in help are extremely easy to understand. There is no confusion. There the magnifying glass, the bell and the gear are traditionally known as search notifications and settings but that blue circle with the letter C is novel so when someone comes and sees that blue letter C, a blue circle with a white letter C what does it mean? They will have to do some navigation, they will have to take their mouse, click on it, focus on their keyboard, they will have to do something because they are not going to know what that means. In this instance it is the button that you press to check out your account settings, to log out and things like that. That's why labelling icons with visual text is really important especially when that icon is not well understood. Steve Krug wrote a book called Don't Make Me Think. I would expect 80% to 90% of team in the room have already read this book. I think he wrote it like 15-20 years ago. He said as a rule people don't like to puzzle over things. They enjoy puzzles in their place - when they want to be entertained, or diverted or challenged - but not when they're trying to find out what time their dry cleaner closes." This is the key reason why when you go to a restaurant et cetera, at the bottom of the page there should be a phone number, address and contact and email. Hours, all that stuff should be at the bottom of the page so you can find that stuff without having to search through five or six different pages. I will show a video and it will talk about short-term memory limitations. We have talked about cognitive load, we have talked about not making people think about what they are trying to do, now let's look at short-term
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    event and therefore may contain errors. This transcript is the joint property of CaptionsLIVE and the authorised party responsible for payment and may not be copied or used by any other party without authorisation. Page 95 memory and why we also need to help people recall what they are doing and now you can remind people where they've been. >> Our short-term memory is limited and yet that is what we are most often using when we try to keep track of information on any particular website or application page. (VIDEO PLAYS) TED DRAKE: That last word was recognition over remembering. Matt asked a really good question again. It is because I am in the context of the United States and not no Australia, I just assumed that you would know what a 5th grade to 8th grade reading level and Anna wrote back it is basically 10-14 years old. At Intuit we make financial software so we expect a higher level of education but if you are a Government agency or an education agency you may - you need to adjust your reading level. The New York Times, Wall Street Journal that is a reading level of more around 10th to 12th grade, it is more like 18-20 years old. Whereas the BBC may have in some of their parts they may have a reading level four to six. So you really have to look at who your audience is. So let's look at designing for short-term memory focus open recognition instead of recall. There will be a new requirement in the next generation of web content guidelines that says if someone forgives you their first name and it is a multi-part forum you need to remember their first name. They should not have to type in their first name or their address more than once. Provide tools that aid in decision make, have the system do some of the work of the user, response time must be fast, change the colour of visited links. This is specifically important if you have a news website or a Government website and people are trying to
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    event and therefore may contain errors. This transcript is the joint property of CaptionsLIVE and the authorised party responsible for payment and may not be copied or used by any other party without authorisation. Page 96 figure out which health insurance forms they need. If you - if they don't know what they've already viewed by chaining your visited links then they will just sit there and keep loading the same forms over and over again. Provide helping context instead of an external resource. I have an example of a foreman here and it says crocodile name the name of the inquiry is Dundee and it has the message Dundee has already been taken. We are putting the error message directly in context with that for name because that is really helpful because there is very little confusion. It is not like you are hiding the error message. You are not putting the error message at the top of the page, you are not putting it in a pop-up or anything like that, you are putting it in context with the element. So let's take a look at content design. I'm sorry if I am going fast but I want to make sure there is enough time for Natasha. This is a picture I took in Australia and it says from now on things will return to being confusing by an artist, Seesaw. Use directed simple languages like using 5-6 grade reading level or whatever is appropriate for your company, avoid language that is culturally dependent, you just saw that I did that by assuming that everybody had the same grade levels nomenclature. We changed the terms all-hands meetings to all-staff meetings. Someone asked is that because not everybody has hands or not everybody can raise their hands? It wasn't because of that, it was because what does "all-hands" mean. It is a euphemism. It might bouncing in some areas of the world but it is not necessarily understandable in all areas of the world. If you say all-staff meeting, it makes sense. It is everybody that is a staff of a department is going to go meet. So there's a section of our content design. This in particular was about abolishing racist language but I think it is appropriate for everything. It says can a word be substituted for something clearer or more literal? The answer is often yes. Think about what the term
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    event and therefore may contain errors. This transcript is the joint property of CaptionsLIVE and the authorised party responsible for payment and may not be copied or used by any other party without authorisation. Page 97 actually means and describe that. Now I have a video, I want to see what my timing is. I don't have enough time to show this video. Let me just describe it. I am from California, the West Coast of the United States. My mum is from Alabama, my dad is from Tennessee, my partner is from Tennessee, I grew up in the South. There is a term called bless your heart, or bless his heart and it sounds like they are saying something nice to you but what they are actually saying could be anything from, "Man, that person's really stupid" or, "Could you believe how gullible that person is" or, "They fell out of the tree". So when you hear someone say "bless your heart" in the south it is a euphemism, it sounds great but 90% of the time they are not blessing your heart. This is a video, it is a rather long video but I don't want to take the time to watch it. The link is in the slides so I'm sorry to tease you about that but I just want to save us time. Let's take a look at multi-modal learning experience. This is something that has been brought out internally from our neurodiversity network. It is the fact that if you can combine text with images and illustrations, on the screen right now I have a block of text with the heading and it came from the website Cat Ipsum, it is like Loren ipsum but it is all about cats. It is illustrated with the little cats flipping the bird. Even if you couldn't read the text you could see that these cats are just a wee bit mischievous but if you could read the text and see the pen then it also adds more context. When you are creating content and that content might be hard to describe or hard to understand, consider adding illustration, images, videos, even sound. Only when it is important, only when the - don't play sound automatically, let the user choose that. With typography use left alignment. We respect users preferences for colour and size. We want the users, they can go into their computers and they can set it - my dog is playing in the background - they can set their
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    event and therefore may contain errors. This transcript is the joint property of CaptionsLIVE and the authorised party responsible for payment and may not be copied or used by any other party without authorisation. Page 98 favourite fonts or enlarge their favourite font size. Allow them to do that. The "dyslexic" fonts, they have strange shapes that help you differentiate between a B and a D and a P and a G. You can kind of tell when a letter is upside down or something like that. While they make sense, they don't actually work. So Gareth Ford Williams I talked about him earlier, the group is the readability group, they did a mass of research and what they found were the best fonds were SF Pro, which I believe is Apple, Segoe, Ui, red hat text, Atkins, and verdana. I believe these all sensor fonts. The worst fonts included two of the dyslexic fonts and comic sans. A lot of times you will say you can use comic sans or the dyslexic fonts. Not necessarily true. I void large fonts centred content. You generally want to do left alignment. Don't do justified alignment where the left and the right are even. That causes unusual shapes, gaps between the words and people with dyslexia instead of reading left or right will go through the gaps in the words where the gaps are inconsistent. You also notice that my slides are not quite in black, they are an off white with an off black text. Some people have a hard time reading high contrast. Use slightly off backgrounds and text colours, it really helps. So I'm looking at my time, I have about 10 minutes. I was hoping I had plenty of time for this one. I want to talk about research I did on sickle cell disease. Sickle cell disease is a genetic disease that affects primarily African-Americans across the United States, South America, Africa. It was normally called the malaria gulf. It is a disease that causes the blood cells - normally they are soft and flexible, to become sticky, hard, they actually flop over, they get stuck in the capillaries and arteries. What happens is when they do that the blood can't get past them and then you're - your fingers, your toes or the parts of your body start getting starved for oxygen, they start dying and it creates a crisis - extremely painful. But often the people that have sickle
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    event and therefore may contain errors. This transcript is the joint property of CaptionsLIVE and the authorised party responsible for payment and may not be copied or used by any other party without authorisation. Page 99 cell disease are usually black-skinned, people of colour, so there is also a layer of racism and people coming to the emergency room asking for pain control but there's no visible sign as to why they are hurting. It is not like they have a broken arm or, you know, a toe's been cut off. Instead they see someone that doesn't look like they are in pain but they are begging for pain medication. They receive a lot of socio-racial racial barriers when having a crisis. This is a video from an artist who had sickle cell disease. He unfortunately passed away about a year ago, but this is a project where he was talking about putting his art into waiting rooms. (VIDEO PLAYS) TED DRAKE: That was for a competition from Lighthouse for the Blind. He didn't make to it the finals but he was the people's choice winner for that video. Pain is a suffering and suffering is a torture. Pain memory sticks with you long after the crisis, it causes post-traumatic stress and anxiety. So we worked with Hertz, I worked also with an Intuit colleague and we chose a generic form we found on the internet for a patient entry to a clinic and we asked him how does this form work for you? How would you fill it out? What would you change about it? I'm sure you can look at it and you might see some things that you would change on it immediately but let's look at what Hertz said about a form like this. >> Most of the time I can't read them, I'm in too much pain and because I'm in crisis, my eyes may be watering as I'm in crisis, I'm not going to see that form anyway. I don't want to use my blindness as an excuse at all but most of the time I can't read them. I'm in too much pain and because I'm in crisis, my eyes may be watering as I'm crying. You know,
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    event and therefore may contain errors. This transcript is the joint property of CaptionsLIVE and the authorised party responsible for payment and may not be copied or used by any other party without authorisation. Page 100 I'm not going to see that form anyway. So I don't want to use my blindness as an excuse at all it is just that most of the time a regular vision - a regular person with 20/20 vision will not be able to read your form because they are squinting, they are crying, they have had a rough eight hours. Normally we wait eight or so hours just so know that this is actually a crisis that is not going to go away. Sometimes you have a crisis, it comes out, you take two Tylenol, you wait four hours, it goes away, you start feeling better and you don't have to go in. You wait eight hour, it doesn't go away. Now you have to face the music, now you have to go in. So a warrior is probably waiting eight or more hours before they got their pain taken care of so they have already been through hell and back. So the form is the last thing they can probably focus on. So there's going to be as will of difficulties for forms in the first place for us. So normally there is an advocate there or a parent or somebody else who is going to help you fill out those forms or if you are alone that form is not going to get filled, it is going to get filled by the nurse who's asking the questions and they are filling out the form for you and they ask you to sign it, you know. That's usually how it works. TED DRAKE: I apologise in the middle of that presentation my dog decided to play with his most annoying toy! Let's take a look at those forms and how we were able to make them better. The first thing that he says get rid of all that unnecessary information. I don't want to fill out a form that gives you information so that you can track down my family to make sure that they pay for my hospitalisation. I don't know what a guarantor is. Remove things like sex, race, marital status and where is the question asking who is my doctor? So basically he is saying that the form is completely irrelevant to him. All he wants to do is get into the hospital, he wants payment, he
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    event and therefore may contain errors. This transcript is the joint property of CaptionsLIVE and the authorised party responsible for payment and may not be copied or used by any other party without authorisation. Page 101 wants treatment right away, he wants this crisis to be fixed and this is not going to do anything for him. So let's take a look at the updated form. The first thing we did was we focussed on the core purpose. The core purpose is for a patient to come in and get the care they need. So the new form has critical information at the top. Who's the doctor? What is the pain level on a one through 10 scale, are you an eight or nine, is it acute pain, chronic pain, is it throbbing pain. What treatment is typically effective for you? What medication are you taking in what medication works for you and what complications do you have? Just because you have sickle cell disease doesn't mean you have the same complications as everybody else. It is a broad spectrum of complications. And then also sickle cell warriors know their bodies. They want to be respected for their self-advocacy, believed for their pain levels and the seriousness of their crisis. We want them to be able to provide information so that you can then make the treatments as quickly as possible. But he also said that he would never fill in that form. He is in too much pain. He can't move, so someone else is going to fill it in for him. So he said make it easy to fill out. Use check boxes and simple inputs for fast, important information. Critical information first. Notes for detail. Imagine you are a six-year-old and your mother is in the hospital for a sickle cell crisis and she's asking do you fill out this form. You're five or six years old. You may not be able to read it but you may be able to recognise the words. So you may be able to say morphine and she can say allergy, yes, effective no or effective, yes. You might be able to put in some notes. The person reading this form might be a parent, might be a child, might be a nurse but the key thing is that you can ask the questions and fill them out quickly. So, in summary, when it comes to chronic pain and anxiety, focus on your customer's purpose. Optimise for their experience and not yours. On your screen I have a primary phone number with three inputs
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    event and therefore may contain errors. This transcript is the joint property of CaptionsLIVE and the authorised party responsible for payment and may not be copied or used by any other party without authorisation. Page 102 for area code and the number for your phone number. This might be perfect for your database but it is a terrible experience for your customers. You should have a single input and you should do the work on the back end to make that phone work. Trust your customer's experience. Remember your customer may not bow the person interacting with your design. Use simple language and don't ask for non-essential information. And follow design standards for vision, cognitive and vis disability. There is a common statement for people with autism, when you have met one person with autism you have met one person with autism. It is basically this quote highlights how autism is extremely diverse. It is the same for people with ADHD, with anxiety, with obsessive compulsive disorder, chronic fatigue, chronic pain and short-term memory loss. You can't assume that because you know one person with this condition that you understand everybody else. So include neurodivergent people in your customer research. With that I wish I had time for questions. They want to see you. He is too busy trying to go through his toy box. STEVE BATY: Thank you very much. TED DRAKE: If anyone is interested on more information from Intuit. Maybe he can raise his hand and you can go up to him and ask him. We will be having an accessibility week in Sydney in late October and perhaps if you are in the area you can join. STEVE BATY: Thank you, Ted. So on that topic, if you get a chance, there was an address at the National Press Club yesterday which I was fortunate enough to catch most of in between things by Em Rusciano who talked about her lived experience as an adult - as a woman through her